Witnessing parental intercourse (the Primal Scene), dreading or experiencing castration (fear of or experiencing body mutilation in man; in woman obscure memories, or just mere conviction of having been subjected to some painful victimization in her prehistoric past {the period of infantile amnesia}, when some part of her, perhaps the penis, which she did once possess, got brutally taken away from her, in all probability by the father {the endless source of the woman's grudge against men and the muse of feminism}, and in which the mother also participated in some fashion, and because of this betrayal she {the mother} deserves her {daughter's} rage {woman's unrelenting ambivalence towards her mother and her sex}and which {the stealing of her penis}, eventually, one way or another, by hook or crook, perhaps by solving some great knot/riddle, or by simply being troublesome, paradoxical and inscrutable in her designs and behaviors {enigmatic nature of the female sex}, she will reverse), and seduction by parent or parent substitute, are three Primal Fantasies that Freud enumerated in his Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis and in his analysis of the Wolfman's Neurosis and Dream.
I must clarify here that Wolfman was not like a centaur, wolf in his lower half and human above his waist from some psychoanalytic miscegenation experimentation gone awry or a werewolf who had to be transformed back into 100 percent human upon the psychoanalytic couch but a very rich Russian aristocrat who sought Freud's help in resolving his obsessional neurosis and phobia of wolves, a fear which had first emerged in a nightmare at the age of four. A dream which so dramatically portrayed his terror of wolves that the followers of Freud dubbed him as Wolfman and his case history, perhaps the finest description of the anatomy of a neurotic mind, as Wolfman's case. Psychoanalysts are not above dramatization and sensationalism to escape the arduous task of actually understanding mental issues.
Are there other primal fantasies?
An interesting question. It is a safe bet that nobody has added anything new to Freud's discoveries of these Primal Fantasies. The trouble with Freud's genius is that whatever he observed he observed so deeply, and described it so shorn of neurotic clutter, that the latter day psychoanalysts are stumped in adding anything of significance that goes beyond what Freud has already described or hinted at.
Whence do these primal fantasies come from and what role they play in our psychic development? The fantasies like everything else that passes intergenerationally are precipitates from the species phylogenetic past. Which means that once upon a time they were regular part of the species behavior. In our prehistoric past it must have been common for children - when perhaps the clothes were not yet invented and humans did not conceal their sexual behavior from others that scrupulously - to easily witness parental intercourse. One may interpolate here that with the emergence of the Internet and Social Media, this prehistoric past is reemerging and may have something to do with the exponential rise in anxiety and transgender behavior worldwide. Also in some epoch of our prehistory (See Freud's book Totem and Taboo when humans lived in primal horde {by horde Freud meant small clans like a pack of wolf or pride of lions} under the protection of a despotic polygamous father who dominated the clan brutally) it must have been common for the father to castrate his sons once they reached the age to pose threat to his supremacy and also for him to routinely take his daughters as his mates in order to sexually possess all the females in the clan.
Now in human children ontogeny recapitulates the above three phylogenetic experiences. Which means that reexperiencing them in human development has some evolutionary purpose. But the fact that it is not reexperienced as acted out behaviors but only as phantasies means that the evolutionary and cultural imperatives have made these behaviors obsolete in practice though they must still be bringing some benefit from reemerging in the psyche. Actual witnessing of parental intercourse (in fact exposure to any form of direct expression of genital sexuality before puberty) there is a general consensus is harmful for the psychosocial development of the child and modern day fathers do not castrate their sons nor take their daughters as their wives. But the inclination to do so persists and the phylogenetic memories of these once practiced behaviors do emerge as phantasies. It must be clarified these phantasies undergo considerable distortion before they make it into the consciousness - and mostly do so in dreams where distortion is the language of the day - making them almost unfathomable. They first appear during the Oedipal phase, around the age of 3 to 5, when they act as impulsions in the child to discover the core nature of the relationship (which at the bottom of course is sexual) between the parents and to provoke and attempt sexual satisfaction from the parents/parent substitutes even if it involves dealing with the dreaded issue of castration. The seduction is not with just one parent at a time while wishing the other parent to disappear (die) - the positive and negative Oedipal Complex - but with both the parents simultaneously (precursor of the perversion of orgies and orgiastic fusion and its sublimation in to seeking oneness with entire humanity, the wellspring of human spirituality/religion/interlinking art designs). On meeting frustration in these endeavors which is the norm (though unfortunately not always, and if actual seduction does occur it causes severe distortions in the person's psychosexual development) these impulsions find satisfactions either in other pursuits (social and cultural goals/aim-inhibited goals) or are repressed back into the unconscious for them to try another attempt at satisfaction after puberty with new objects. The repressed components continue to operate throughout our lives forming the backbone of our characters. They also forge our psychosexual expressions in all our subsequent relationships and if we fall mentally ill provide the blueprint of our neuroses. Recognizing the manifestations of these primal fantasies in their myriad forms, and unravelling the distortions and displacements they undergo before emerging in the patients' consciousness and communications, is the heart of psychoanalytic treatment. It may not be perhaps an error to consider that the formation of the Superego (the heir of the Oedipus Complex as Freud put it) owes to the frustration, or rather the restrain the child and parents have to practice, in finding direct satisfaction of these phylogenetic fantasies in their relationship. Greater the direct sexualization (erotic arousal) when these phantasies are acted out by the child with the parents, greater will be the defects in his superego and more will be the child robbed off its full quota of sexuality in loving non-familial people later in life.
In this essay I will present a few dreams of the Primal Scene and will show how its expression is so alike across cultures and time.
What is most remarkable about them is as to how some of the details of the manifest content show similarity to Wolfman's Dream (the prototypical Primal Scene Dream of psychoanalysis), even though in the latter the manifest scenes were derived from the fairy tales of "The Wolf and Seven Little Goats", "The Little Red Riding Hood" and "The Tailor and the Tailless Wolf". It only goes to show that the fairy tales are derived from our phylogenetic heritage too..
For those who have not read Freud's History of an Infantile Neurosis let me give here the Wolfman's dream that will make it easier to follow what I write here:
"I dreamt that it was night and that I was lying in bed. (My bed stood with its foot towards the window; in front of the window there was a row of old walnut trees. I know it was winter when I had the dream, and night-time.) Suddenly the window opened of its own accord, and I was terrified to see that some white wolves were sitting on the big walnut tree in front of the window. There were six or seven of them. The wolves were quite white, and looked more like foxes or sheep-dogs, for they had big tails like foxes and they had their ears pricked like dogs when they pay attention to something. In great terror, evidently of being eaten up by the wolves, I screamed and woke up. My nurse hurried to my bed, to see what had happened to me. It took quite a long while before I was convinced that it had only been a dream; I had had such a clear and life-like picture of the window opening and the wolves sitting on the tree. At last I grew quieter, felt as though I had escaped from some danger, and went to sleep again."
And now back to my patients' primal scene dreams, I will begin with a dream whose structure could be penetrated with fair certainty and the latent content could be easily guessed from theoretical considerations and from the presence of typical dream symbols. The dream had been written by the patient as soon as he woke up and I reproduce it here unchanged.
I was dreaming that I was inside of a whale and another whale was passing by. I was being crushed from the other whale. A large weight was pressing on me from the side. I felt that I was the whale and the two whales were pushing heavy from on top of me.
The patient who suffers from paranoid disorder, but is remarkably intelligent, artistically gifted, familiar with the technique of dream interpretation, and quite aware of the "womb fantasy" - escaping the pains and sorrows of living in the harsh realities of the world by returning to the mother's womb - from the analysis of previous similar dreams, had no difficulty in recognizing even as he was writing the dream down that being inside the whale symbolized his crawling back to his mother's womb and taking respite there.
He was puzzled however as to why the second whale was pressing upon him. When asked what thoughts come to his mind in connection with that he could first think of nothing, but a few minutes later, while the session had moved to some other topic unrelated to the dream, he suddenly remembered the day's residue which had woven the fabric of the manifest content. On the day before the dream he was with a cousin who talked about how when she was a very young girl her dad would playfully squeeze her between his thighs till she could hardly breath. Though the pressure would be on the stomach, it would be so strong that it would be hard to catch her breath. It felt like a punishment yet so blissful - for it represented her father's strong love (crush) for her.
The narration of this aim-inhibited sexual play between the father and daughter obviously had been utilized by the dreamwork to give expression to the fantasy of the Primal Scene.
Recognizing it as such, the patient was asked if he had ever witnessed parental intercourse. He had not, but associated the question immediately with having seen his mother naked while she was taking bath, confirming that the analysis of the dream was on the right path. Then added that her mother was very pretty and artistically gifted as well, and he really admired how she could draw cowboys with hats.
This association led me to think of Wolfman's dream where mother's lack of penis, which enabled the father to copulate with her, but acted as the source of dread for the child as a confirmation of the reality of castration, was denied by the dreamwork through making the wolves' tails big and fox like. The dreamwork had distracted the dreamer, with the aim of mitigating the horror of castration, by the pictorial representation of the logic: why worry about what is absent when you can focus upon the wolves' big and bushy tails. Similarly in my patient the logic went: why fear the presence of castration in her instead notice how lovely she is and admire those majestic cowboy hats that she draws (fetishistic compensation for the absent penis)?
Unlike the Wolfman's Primal Scene dream, a further step had been taken in my patient's dream. The Wolfman had witnessed the parental intercourse at the age of one and a half but had understood its sexual meaning only at the age of 4, when he had rejuvenated this memory in a dream, after getting seduced by his sister, which had stimulated his sexual curiosity and had aroused the phantasy to reexperience similar seduction in hands of his father, a more desired person. The Wolfman had identified with the mother while witnessing the parental intercourse but had not placed himself in her position at least in the manifest content of the dream. In my patient, the large weight pressing from the side pointed out to it being the fantasy of being sandwiched between the two copulating parents while in the womb. So his dream was condensation of two Primal Fantasies: watching the parental intercourse and being seduced by them. When this interpretation was offered, he could easily identify with the fantasy of substituting himself for the mother and sexually submitting himself to the father, but had difficulty in accepting that he was also substituting himself for the father and copulating with the mother, This was obviously due to a greater fear attached to displacing the father from exercising his rights over the mother than displacing the mother. The repressive process had also tried to shift the presence of the father on top of him (the passive homosexual connotation of which was humiliating) to as coming from the side (the large weight pressing from the side). Though the wish to copulate with the father while taking the role of the mother had continued to assert its presence with the weight also being felt from the top (the two whales were pushing heavy from on top of me).
Curious as to how the copulation with the father while inside the mother's womb was depicted in the manifest content by the dreamwork, I asked him to draw the dream scene.
He drew the following:
The father at the bottom, with the patient on his back, with the mother behind the son, did not fit in with how father could copulate with the son while the latter was inside the womb. I raised this doubt and the patient admitted that out of shame of showing himself being homosexually penetrated from the back by his father he had, while drawing it for me, reversed his position in the womb to face him instead of being impaled by him as it really was in the dream.
Had he also shifted the position of the father below him instead of above him while drawing?
No. the reversal of the position of the father as at the bottom instead of on top was the work of the dreamwork and not the work of his drawing it for me.
The patient agreed when a further interpretation was made that putting the father down was revenge for the passive homosexual position he had to adopt in relationship with the father.
Knowing that his paranoid relapses occur when while attending church blasphemous thoughts (visualizing kicking the pregnant Virgin Mary in her stomach or hurling abuses at the priest for the endless praising of the virtues of Jesus) make a breakthrough into this psyche, I put forward the following construction : Putting the father below him was a symbolic retaliatory castration of the father for the homosexual humiliation.
At this point another fragment of the dream emerged out of repression as if to confirm the correctness of the construction.
Later a large squid was passing by and again the weight was being pushed against me. When asked to draw this fragment, he drew the following.
Based upon my previous knowledge of him, it was felt the squid replaced the whale to depict his elder brother with whom he lives (both are confirmed bachelors), and with whom he has strong libidinal ties (though aim-inhibited, without any overt eroticism).
But squid was also chosen because that is his favorite sea creature. He often uses the squid for his cartoon drawings. Its multiple arms allows one to express so much more than one can achieve with other sea animals with no limbs at all but they also (akin to the special fascination humans have for octopuses, spiders and multipedes) symbolize reversal of castration. Instead of the dreaded missing penis there is multiplication of it though in the form of limbs. In this connection one cannot help but be reminded of how Hindu Gods are endowed with multiple arms and sometimes multiple heads.
When asked how many limbs the squid had, he stated: 6-8.
One cannot help but notice as to how the numbers chosen 6-8 to deny castration are similar to Wolfman's multiplying his 2 parents into 6 or 7 wolves though he drew only 5 of them.
That the interpretation of the dream was correct was confirmed when the patient in the next couple of sessions brought in a string of dreams with the Primal Scene and castration as their main theme - a subject he had not touched despite decades of once a month treatment.
I will give analysis of only one of the dreams and excerpts from others where the issue of castration is dealt with by the dreamer.
Mom, Robert and I were flying in an airplane - a two winger. Mom was nervous because she doesn't like to fly. She was moving things around back in the plane. It was a beautiful view of the grand canyons. I noticed a hole in the wing. Robert picked up a rock and was trying to cover the hole. Robert was flying the plane. I told him not to do that but go on flying the plane. We went into a cave where we were coming to a crash landing but eventually we made it to the ground.
The affect accompanying the dream was remarkably different from the whale dream where great dread was the order of the day. Here it was all bright and happy romping on the plane with just the mother being a little nervous till of course the bonhomie gradually got engulfed by the rising dread of castration.
Both the patient and I were in agreement that this dream was a therapeutic after effect of the successful interpretation of the whale dream, and an attempt on his part to manage intercourse with the fragments from the Primal Scene being used to facilitate it. He has never had a intercourse with a woman in his entire life. The brother had replaced the father in the dream just as he had in real life, the father being dead now for decades. Successfully flying was overcoming of all his inhibitions in one stroke (at least in the dream) and being able to take a masculine stance (defying gravity, achieving erection). The two winger alluded to his need to have his brother (behind which the figure of the father also stood) as his accomplice to do the act of flying (the sexual act). The anxiety over doing the act was projected upon the mother as it is she who is afraid to fly (have sex). The beautiful view of the grand canyons was the restored ability to appreciate the beauty of the mother (extended to mother earth) by overcoming the fear of castration which through the generation of anxiety swallows up other affects. The mother's moving things around was her attempt to cover up the absence of penis in her so as to not provoke the castration anxiety and spoil the joy of watching the Grand Canyon (her majestic beauty). But the fear of castration nevertheless broke through: I noticed a hole in the wing. Attempts to deny the reality of castration for libidinal enjoyment was too dangerous and nevertheless he persists in the denial persuading his brother to concentrate upon keeping the enjoyment going instead of worrying about the coming danger. However, once the castration anxiety was triggered the party was over. Despite attempts to deny the danger to the plane (erection) and despite exhortation to the co-pilot to keep the enjoyment going the libidinal excitement was on the wane. Entering into the cave to keep the plane safe (keep the anxiety at bay and for the castration to not happen [crash landing]) was no more than taking refuge back into the mother's womb. The dream had a little happier ending in that they did not go right back to the womb (death) but made it to the ground safely. So there was a progress in his level of courage from the interpretation of the earlier dream.
Fragments of other dreams during the same period are presented below. The theme of castration is unmistakable in them.
My dad was working on board panel....Robert and I were holding the panel boards....we were helping dad but resenting it.... Dad was using a circular saw to cut the boards and we were worried it would cut our hand off
Suddenly a big rain and wind storm blew and a pile of construction blocks landed on top of my dad. I immediately went to help my dad . His arm was bent in a way where we had to lift the blocks off cement to get it straightened. I was scared.
Jesus was speaking my name. [As a consequence] felt warmth in my chest. Heard His voice: "Were you speaking my name?" Felt really guilty because He wanted me to become priest where you cannot get married. I could not become priest but decided never to go out with girls again. Then fought with impulses to gouge my eyes out to not look at women with lust.
The doctor brought in a picture of a trifold.... it was something Jesus wanted me to see....So I gouged out the two sides of the trifold artwork [the castration displaced upon the testicles instead of the penis]....told the doctor [it got to be you, for doctors in my dreams stand for you]....and he said shouldn't be a problem....Then an evil devil came and was wrestling with me. I was so scared. He added that the devil is another version of the security guards who follow him around and threaten to cut his penis when he has episodes [paranoid relapses] in which he insults Jesus (his father) and has weird sexual thoughts like commands to go and molest children.
The next Primal Scene dream is of an 18 year old boy. This recurrent dream had made its debut when he was 4 or 5. It was very frightening and he dreaded sleeping because of it. Around 6 or 7 years of age it stopped. Then recently, accompanied by depression, caused by his being excluded by his school mates from hanging out with them and a dawning realization that he is not like others but has unusual slightly dysmorphic built and an eccentric personality which would make it hard for him to get an ideal girlfriend, he had begun dreaming it again.
I am alone in the house. Suddenly I look out of the window and see a tall monster, taller than the house, 2-storey tall, about 20 feet, shaped like a TV character, I think it was taken from the Sesame Street, a character there who was taller than all the other Muppets. Frozen with fear I run and hide inside the house to avoid the monster finding me. But he finds me nevertheless and standing tall over the house tears apart the roof and reaches out for me. That is when I wake up with fright. At times my cat is with me. Other times she is not. To protect her I carry her with me to when I run to hide.
The boy was very skeptical that the dream had anything to do with sex, let alone Primal Scene. But gave no resistance in producing the associations. He agreed that the cat most likely symbolized his mother (compare this with Wolfman's dream where the mother and father were replaced by wolves). In the former the wolves (father substitutes) were on a tree at a height from where they watched him with strained attention, which was a "reversal" of his watching the parental intercourse. Satisfaction of Scopophilic instinct is usually represented in dreams as watching from a height. Here the monster (father) was looking at him from the top as well. In both dreams the same mechanism was utilized: the child's sexual curiosity being shown as father's curiosity about him In both dreams the Primal Scene was witnessed from the window (entrance of the genital passage). Tearing apart of the roof and grabbing him were allusions to castration and copulation respectively.
The last dream of the Primal Scene was of an attractive, flamboyant, always heavily made-up, histrionic, blond Irish girl, in her late thirties. She recalled that at around the age of 5, but it could have been 6 or 7, she was filled with forebodings that something ominous was going to happen to her and the author of it would be her stepfather. The forebodings had no clear content but she knew was related to something sexual as she had been privy to her parents sexual activities every now and then either guessing from the sounds coming out of their room but also perhaps having witnessed it outright while they were not too careful about hiding it. While anticipating and dreading for it to happen to her, a longing that was sensed both by her mother and her stepfather, and the fulfillment of which the mother facilitated, and the stepfather took advantage of.
One afternoon the mother left to do errands. The patient claimed that I could sense that my mother had left the house so my stepfather could take advantage of her, though without realizing (having insight) that that is what she (mother) was aiming at. She was literally handing me to her husband, so afraid she was of the world and so desperate for a man's protection that she wanted to keep him tied to her at any cost including sacrificing her daughter to his sexual appetite The minute she had driven away, with the expression on her face that she was not returning for hours and is turning a blind eye to whatever is about to happen, my stepfather came after me. I ran but tripped on the threshold of the door between the living room and the kitchen and he did to me what he did being slightly confused as to what to do since I was so little and would not get off the floor. She refused to give any further details of what actually transpired at that point adding only one detail that next day she tried to cook a meal for her stepfather by haphazardly mixing some cooking ingredients on the kitchen floor which brought tears to his eyes, for he realized that she was trying to be wife to him now that the act which bonds a woman and a man had been done by him to her and so it was now her duty to cook for him.
From that point onwards she became deeply bonded to the stepfather. The sexual activity ended when she got pregnant at age of 17 and left with the boy who had impregnated her. That relationship did not last beyond a few months. That separation and living on her own. It is at that time that the dream first made its entrance. But at times she claimed it was perhaps present from when she first experienced the sex with her stepfather.
The dream was made up of a single scene.
I am on the threshold of the door between the living room and the kitchen. I look up and I see two lions staring at me. So intense is their stare that I remain hypnotized with fear. Everything is so eerily still that it is oppressive. I keep staring at the lions as if to keep them on bay from eating me up.
The patient strangely had no significant ill feelings towards her step-father, or perhaps more correctly her feelings were admixture of anger and continued fondness for him. She still saw him when she visited her mother, which she frequently did and let them babysit her two children, claiming that she did not think he ever molested them. Her biological father had taken no interest in her and to escape child support had allowed her to be adopted by the stepfather when she was a toddler. She claimed her mother was devoid of any true maternal emotions because of her high anxiety and if her stepfather had not taken interest in her she would have grown up without any parental love or guidance. The sexual relationship that went on all through her latency period and adolescence had bonded her so strongly to him that she derived no significant sexual pleasure or orgasm from all her subsequent relationships She was married and divorced four times and had many relationships in between those marriages. But she claimed that she did not feel much for any of them as if her relationship with the man who had seduced her at the age of 5 somehow interfered with it. In fact one of her favorite songs was "hopelessly yours," the lyrics of which went: " I love you, I hate you, I'd forget you, but I'm afraid to. You loved me or did you' I'll never be sure. But one thing's for certain .In spite of this hurtin' I'll always be Hopelessly yours. From laughin' to cryin' from livin' to dyin' from heaven to a heartache I know I can't cure But one thing's for certain In spite of this hurtin' I'll always be hopelessly yours.
She frankly admitted that the song captured the complex love and hate relationship she had with the man who had made her love life so strange. While she did not have orgasmic sexual discharge with her husbands and boyfriends she always had to have sex with them as frequently as was feasible. In addition those men found favor in her eyes who would take her to Strip Clubs where she could satisfy her overwhelmingly strong scopophillic propensities and would watch pornographic movies with her.
As for the dream, both the patient and I quickly concluded that it was the depiction of the Primal Scene. The two lions symbolized the parents. In Wolfman's dream the two parents were replaced by several wolves. In my lady's case the two parents were symbolized by the two lions, their number had not been altered. It could have been because the Wolfman dread was primarily of the father in whose hands he feared castration (depicted with aid of regression from genital to the oral phase of sexuality as fear of getting eaten up by the wolves) and to mitigate this fear he had not only changed the figure of the father from human to that of a wolf, but to many wolves, as if by increasing their numbers he was decreasing the fear of each individual one of them. Unlike the wolfman my patient was as afraid of the mother as of the father and with both parents equally feared, they both had found expression on equal footing, each being symbolized as a lion.
When she began treatment with me she was dreaming this dream every night. In fact, all through the night. She claimed she never really slept. As soon as she closed her eyes the dream would start and stay with her with lesser or greater intensity all night long, not allowing her full rest. She hated the dream and consequently the stepfather, who she held responsible for making it such an integral the part of her life in such a relentless way. Yet, she liked the dream. There was something hypnotically beautiful about those two lions staring at her like that with no movement or activity anywhere. As if the whole world constituted of nothing more but her and those two lions and endless dread. Even during the day a haunting fear of everything accompanied her which she rightly anticipated as emanating from that dream and those lions. Her eyes hauntingly beautiful dripped with fear of something ominous which was about to happen.
I could not help but notice that the way the wolves on that walnut tree stared at the Wolfman, which was projection of his own strained staring at the parental intercourse, was so similar to my patient's two lions staring at her. .
That in the dream she derived sexual satisfaction that was denied to her in her relationship with various men in her waking life was conjectured based upon her claim that the lions staring her like that gave her fear but yet satisfaction. It was felt to be a hysterical condensation of all her sexual energy into the component of scopophilia, concentrated upon watching the parental intercourse. Looking at other people's beauty and sexual attributes and being admired by others for the same was the central feature of her life. The desire to exhibit had led her to become a singer and she successfully performed as part of a ban in nightclubs.
She was convinced that her cure lies in the cessation of that dream, which was not just recurrent or even vehemently intrusive as it happens in PTSD, but something that was present with her every night, and always playing in the background, no matter how light or deep her sleep.
To my great surprise psychotherapy did make a change in that direction. She reported lessening in the intensity of the dream and attributed it to the emergence of a third lion in the dream. She referred to him as a baby lion, who makes his appearance alongside the two big lions, towards whom she feels motherly, and who does not stare at her but sits with his back towards her. Because of that little lion, she claimed, she actually may even start liking her dream. On being asked what is about that little lion that is helping her get better, she said that she does not have to fear that he will eat her up. The patient soon reached the conclusion that that third lion was me, who had no sexual interest in her, hence had his back towards her instead of staring at her. That lion will grow up in size and chase the other lions away in time, she claimed.
Unfortunately, if her claim was correct, we did not get the opportunity to see it come to full fruition. The patient who was living the life of a celibate, having found religion, and was taking treatment as an attempt to conquer her out of control sexuality, met a man who was heavily in child pornography, and like a pied piper took her under his wing, ending her religiosity, celibacy, desire to heal, only to follow this man, living besides him in his Motorhome, out of the state, and out of treatment.
